Granola-crunchers!

After I found out I was carrying the bean, I signed up for a "mothering" discussion forum. Little did I know what I was in for... Much of what I've found so far is not necessarily something that I'm all about. However, there was one discussion called "Teens and Modesty" that I was curious about, so I decided to poke into the blurb and see what was up...

mothertoall posts the original question: "hi, I have to make this short as all the kiddos are up....but I need to ask.....

"I do NOT follow any modesty guidelines for dressing for religous reasons. I have since I have gotten older begun to dress and feel more appropriate in modest (or more modest) dress. I have a niece living with me and she is 12. I have over the last year or so become increasingly uncomfortable with the way she dresses (or maybe its the clothes others buy her....i think.) and I am looking for some input here... My niece is fighting me tooth and nail.....but for my own reasons.....I feel more comfortable if she were dressing more modestly. I have made several requests of her which she follows....but not happily."

Initial response: "Pre-teen girls start to push the edges of acceptable behavior and that's normal. And, so is you saying "no" to clothing that may put forth negative messages about self-respect and intentions... DH or I would be certain to look DD over before she left for school or went out with friends. We weren't obvious about it, but we watched and, if she went over the line, we pulled rank. Sure, there was complaining. But, so what?"

mothertoall response: "I think the sexualization of children in our culture is horrible. I feel like I am already starting the same thing with my 5 year old.....she sees stuff on tv and wants to walk, talk and dress that way. I am frustrated. But I am sticking to my guns. No bellies, no butts hanging out , no revealing blouses or tops, and nothing see thru, no panties hanging out....My niece doesn't really understand...and she gets irratated...but It is MY house."

And it's here we start having issues... Because she says "It is MY house.

First response from "UnschoolnMa": "It is your house, true enough. (Does she live with you? If so, is it her house too?) It is her body no doubt. I think you can guide without being really heavy handed."

My response to Momtoall: "Fairly new here, and am enjoying what I read. I'm due in late January and this is my first.

"I remember my mother raising me when it was "uncool" to nurse, to say yes to your child, and to allow the freedom of choice about things. Personally, I think she did a fine job of raising me to be the best person I could be, with a good head on my shoulders.

"A lot of what she did I'm taking with me and keeping. She nursed me until I was between 2 and 3, when I finally decided that I didn't want the boob anymore, and instead wanted "big people" food. She chose to say yes when I wanted to pick out my own clothes (within reason based on season), and gave me options on which one to pick if I couldn't decide. She gave me the ability to understand that I could try something on the dinner table, and didn't have to eat it all, just had to try a little bit. And she made me understand that it was Mom and Dad who made the rules in the house, and they were reasonable, but would be followed - unless I could sit down with reasonable, calm arguments about change.

"I will most likely have small assorted fruit thrown at me for saying this, but I have always felt that, while our children share our homes and our lives, they still need limits and lines - as my mother used to say, "This is not a democracy, it's a benevolant dictatorship". Parents make the home safe and secure by not only being there, but setting reasonable boundaries for children to learn from, and follow. They learn how to deal with the "outside" world by learning how to follow the rules at home.

"My parents rules were very simple for living in the house:
A. Do your best in school, and GO to school every day unless you're sick.
B. If you aren't going to school, then you need to have a job.
C. If you don't have a job, then you need to do extra chores around the house to help out.
D. If you aren't doing any of the above, you are not being a productive member of this small society we call home, and you can find someplace else to live.

"I don't believe that it was harsh at all, though my older sister and brother felt that it was (they were from a previous marriage of my mother's). After I moved out of my parent's home, I lived with other people and their children. While they felt differently about disciplining their children than my mother did, they still had the limits set in place - it's reasonable to do so.

"I guess I'm a product of the times, but I believe that setting clothing limits is the LEAST one could worry about for a teenager... It's something that can, at least, be controlled by what is being purchased... :-)"

Response from Ruth: "Thank you for saying this! I'm a strong believer in kids needing boundaries and parents being the boss while they pay the bills etc. Sometimes it seems that I'm the only parent not trying to be my kids' best friend!

"Your comments make me feel good about the way I parent, because you see the value of how you were raised before you have become a parent yourself. I'm not throwing fruit at you -- I'm offering you a bowl of delicious Oregon strawberries as a thank you!"

response from UnschoolnMa: "I think it's possible to be both a close friend type parent and a trusted, caretaking, rolemodel. Everyone has boundaries (parents included!) and we treat each other with an equal level of respect that isn't based on age."

Response from "Linda on the move": "I was raised with the whole "my house my rules" line and I thought it was complete nonsense. If it wasn't my home, then I was homeless. I left home when I was still a teen, so I guess being told over and over than it wasn't my home and I had no say eventually sunk in.

"It is possible to provide a child with loving guidance without laying down the law."

My response to the whole "be friends with your children" discussion: "I believe that parents are there first and foremost to be the leader and guide to the world. Being friends with your kids is great, but it takes a back seat to teaching them what is expected of them in society. As for others who have stated that they didn't agree with the "My house, My rules" situation at home, and ended up leaving the situation because they didn't agree with it - well, I can only say that I'm sorry you felt you had to get away from the situation rather than discuss it rationally with your parents. It didn't help either your parents OR you in the long run.

"I had a "My house, My rules" home to grow up in, and I feel I came out just fine. My sister didn't like the idea, and ended up running away and living on the streets, because she refused to come up with a rational argument to have change that would benefit everyone. To this day, my sister is one of the most spoiled humans on this planet, and uses our mother's guilt at "forcing" her daughter out into the streets as a way to get everything she wants from Mom.

"I'm not saying that you cannot be your child's friend. However, there has to be a line between being your child's parent and being your child's friend. You need to make the distinction based on the situation. Friends do not set boundaries and rules at home. Friends do not enforce consequences when said boundaries are broken. Most importantly, friends do not always set positive examples of how to survive in the world.

"On the other hand, a parent DOES do those things. In fact, that's really what a parent is THERE for.

"Being a friend to your child means that you also know when it's time to be a parent, and following through with it."

Then "OrangeFoot" pops up with this: "IME the majority of parents with the 'My house, My rules' attitude to parenting are not the type of parents to enter into respectful and rational discussion with a child.

"Personally I think that pulling the 'I pay the bills' thing is totally unfair to children who have absolutely no other choices about where they live as they have no earning power.

"If you use these arguments you are essentially telling your child that they have no power and that you have it all. The discussions on this thread around control and validation for that control make me uncomfortable. I do believe that being my children's critical friend is a much more heathy way to move forward together than any form of dictatorship; benign, benevolent or malevolent."

My response to "OrangeFoot": "I can't answer to any other situations other than my own and those I've witnessed while living with friends. My parents did have the "My house, My rules" situation - however, they always had time to listen to me if I was willing to come to them with a reasonable way to change the situation regarding most anything - curfews, allowance, clothing, bedtimes - whatever. My friends as well have the "My house, My rules" situation. Again, they make time to listen to their teens if they had valid and reasonable changes to suggest. Perhaps these are exceptions, but I am going to follow the same situation in my home as well. I came out fine, and my friends teens are doing very well - well-adjusted, and quite confident in themselves.

"First of all, the "I pay the bills" argument is one that, by the time a parent would feel the need to play, the child is normally old enough to have a paper route, and the argument is usually about whether they can have money to spend for [insert whatever stuff here]. If you are using this argument prior to the point where a child can understand the issue at hand, and the reason why such an argument may (or may not) be valid, then you need some counselling. Obviously, a 5 year old is NOT going to understand said argument.

"There is a thin line between "boundary" and "control" - some people feel that it is the same thing. It is not. A boundary is something which is fluid, which bends when needed, and moves when necessary - when the situation needs it to. Control is rigid, it is un-moving, un-wavering, and unrelentless. It does not see when a compromise needs to be made. Forms of dress should fall under the idea of boundary - make reasonable compromises based on what is acceptable for age, modesty, and location.
As I said, I have seen what has worked in my family, and what hasn't. Each child, as I said before, is different, and requires different things to raise them successfully. I will take what I have seen work, and temper it with my own learning knowledge of my child and its needs - and I will go from there."

UnschoolnMa then comes up with this one: "We aren't really a consequences enforcing type of family so I can't really speak to that end of things. Positive and negative examples are everywhere including often in the home. I surely hope to be a mostly positive example to my kids, but I know there's some negative in there too. It seems that with the "my house, my rules" approach I would be saying "I get to make the rules because my voice matters more than yours." and that's just not all that positive IMO."

The final straw apparently came from another person who said finally, regarding the original issue (clothing - remember that?) that ultimately, the parent holds the credit card. At that point, "OrangeFoot" decided that she was out of the discussion because it was all about the control again, and we shouldn't have any control over our children at all.

Apparently, according to most of the posters on this forum, we are all supposed to be close-knit friends with our children, not set rules or boundaries for our kids, and let them do whatever they want and they will apparently, supposedly, grow up to be fully responsible adults, willing and able to handle the stresses of everyday life.

Uh huh... And if we all hold hands and hum Kum Bay Ya, the world will stop waging war, we will solve the world hunger and global warming issues, and rainbows will suddenly come out our ass to boot.

So, apparently I'm not going to be a good mother - at least not according to them. Whatever. I don't feel that having an "open bed" policy with your children allows them to grow into their own space and comfort. I don't feel that "on-demand" nursing is an ok situation after the child turns about 2 1/2 years old. I don't feel that refusing to place rules into effect, and not following through with reasonable consequences will make my child happier or more well-adjusted in the long run. And I don't feel that being a friend instead of a parent is a good choice to make. Perhaps it's just me, and how I was raised, but there it is.

~M